Op-Ed: Guilds 25s, Best in Slot Gear, and Gearing Multiple Specs/Toons

[Inori]

This is an op-ed piece; it is not guild policy. I want to make sure people understand my point of view regarding the subject. While I will certainly weigh in, the final say on any dispute goes to the guild master, not me.

Now that we are doing guild 25 mans and using DKP, the potential for loot drama is back. There is some confusion.

The FA DKP system that was put in place for Ulduar25 had the primary intent of gearing up the guild in order to succeed in PvE content (i.e., kill Yogg Saron). For that reason, priority was put into place for a main character's main spec. The idea was to groom people quickly and efficiently to fit certain raid roles; 'diluting' loot onto alternate characters or alternate specs was counter to that. Passing on gear upgrades and hoarding DKP was counter to that.

The Joint DKP system that was put in place for ToC25 with Benediction had the primary intent for encouraging attendance. Many of the progression rules that were put into place for FA only runs were stripped out to make the system manageable (it's hard enough for me to track mains/alts in FA; it would be impossible for me to do it to Benediction too).

Now that we're back to doing FA guild runs, the goal will be to eventually beat Arthas in ICC25. However, since ToC25 is a tier behind, I expect us to be able to underman or bring alts to some of the encounters if we're on top of our game (if we're not on top of our game, even with our mains we can't take down Anub'Arak). Since the loot is a tier behind, I expect a lot of people would be okay with passing on gear (ICC10 = ilvl 251; ToC25 = ilvl 245; ToC10/ICC5 = ilvl 232) because they have access to better loot or marginally weaker loot (if you need to gear up, run all of the ICC5s daily; the loot in there is really good). However, there is still some best in slot gear in ToC25. This can cause some drama.

1) I really do not want to be policing people's main characters, alternate characters, main specs, or off specs. It's a pain. Here's an easy rule of thumb to figure out if you ought to be rolling on best in slot gear: "Do I see myself using this character in this spec for our wipes as we try to learn and beat Arthas 25 for the first time as a guild?". If the answer is no, pass on the gear. Here are some more concrete examples.
1a) HP has a lot of toons. On one night, since we're short on tanks for ToC25, I'm asked to bring my paladin (Wirhelmina) to ToC25 instead of my priest (Inori). Satrina's Impending Scarab drops (best in slot tanking trinket). Even though Wirhelmina's main spec is tanking, I will pass the trinket to the other tank (Ravign). Why? Even if Ravign were DPS 50% of the time and tanking 50% of the time, if we were going up against Arthas, I would be on my priest, not my pally. The guild is better served with me passing the trinket to Ravign.
1b) Akuma comes back to play as a feral DPS druid. He can only raid irregularly, but he manages to make it to a ToC25. Death's Verdict drops (best in slot DPS trinket). Even though Akuma's main spec is DPS, I would graciously ask that he pass on the trinket. Why? Since his raiding schedule is irregular, taking best in slot doesn't really help us kill Arthas. If he insisted on taking it, though, I couldn't bar him from keeping it (see below).
1c) HP moves out to rural area and has to play WoW using a dial up connection. He lags a lot and dies in fire often. He gets kicked out from healing duty and just does DPS. Reign of Unliving drops (best in slot DPS trinket). Even though my main spec is DPS, I will pass on the trinket to another DPS. Why? I know there are other DPS trinkets that I can get outside of 25 man raids. I'm better off passing the 'hard to get' trinket to a raider that would use it to kill Arthas.

2) I really don't want to be making exotic rules and exceptions to the zero sum DKP system. It's a pain and it confuses people. I have always preferred that the DKP system be used to control loot distribution only; I prefer the attendance policy to control player behavior. Zero sum DKP amounts to round robin loot -- the more successful kills you help with, the more DKP you earn; the more loot you take away, the more DKP you lose. In a normal, well staffed guild, there would be more raid candidates than raid slots. Players that were casual or performed poorly would be invited less often than solid raiders; as such, solid raiders would accumulate greater amounts of DKP. Since solid raiders would responsibly gear up outside of 25 man raids by running 10s and ICC5, they could pass on a lot of gear and 'hoard' DKP for best in slot items. The gear that was passed on would be large upgrades for casual raiders and the loot is a 'win-win'; casual raiders get to upgrade their gear, best in slot gear goes to those who would use it effectively, and no loot is DEd. However, since we are understaffed, everyone should be thankful for those willing to come to help out the raid. I have no intention of implementing loot restrictions or weird systems to force certain items to certain people (e.g., restricting best in slot items to top 5 DPS, awarding bonus DKP to top DPS -- these sort of things cause more harm than good).

3) I have no problem with people building up multiple specs as long as it makes sense. In the other thread, there is a discussion about Raving being on OT duty for ICC25 bosses that require 3 tanks and DPS duty for ICC25 bosses that require two tanks. Remember, zero sum DKP amounts to round robin. If you divide up your loot 'opportunities' between two specs (by invoking priority and full DKP cost on each spec), you will gear up each spec half as fast as someone who focuses all of their 25 man raid loot towards a single spec. Since you will be boosting each of your specs with 25 man raid gear half as often, it becomes critical that you do the research and supplement each of your specs with gear outside of the 25 man raid (e.g., 10s, ICC5, crafted, emblems) and be very selective about the loot that you do take inside of 25 man raids (e.g., only take gear in slots where there is no comparable item from another source).

4) I'm a very patient person. As I stated in the original post, the only real way to 'game' the zero sum system is to not declare any main spec and try to get everything for offspec bids. If people want to invoke priority and pay full DKP for best in slot items even though it may not make the most sense (alt char, off spec, low attendance, poor performance), I'm more than happy to award them the item and send them into negative DKP so that I don't have to worry about them invoking loot priority again for a while. If we run content long enough, items will drop more than once.

-HP

[Benvolo]

^^ that

[Judecca]

i hope therell b no more alts taking loot over mains again

[WarmApplePie]

Wait, did something happen last week? Or are you talking about something that happened in the past?

[draven]

for those not aware, death's verdict dropped, which is a best in slot trinket for a lot of people still.
being the first week we were using dkp, the issue came up as to how to treat alts and alt specs who were interested along with mains and / or people who consistently bring one toon focused on dps. the delay during loot distribution was caused by the officers trying to come to a consensus on what was most fair, easiest to manage / track, and is best for the guild. its something that we should have figured out before the raid, but didn't, for which i apologize.

the decision was that people can roll on whatever they want (within reason) on whatever toon / spec they want to, with the request that consideration is taken for others and the raid as a whole if someone isn't going to consistently raid or raid on a specific spec. trying to track peoples specs / alts isn't something that is feasible, or at least isn't something that is worth the time and effort. since we are just starting out with dkp again, it will take a few raids for everything to become stratified. after that, those that don't need gear or are looking for something specific should have their choice, while those competing for the most negative dkp award can pick up as many scraps as they like. in the end, the system should serve everyone's goals as fairly as possible.

all this said, gear is still just gear. best in slot isn't going to be so forever, there will always be something better. more importantly, we still need to get better at raid mechanics and everyone making sure they are taking care of their own raid responsibilities and maximizing their character's abilities. toc25 is not a difficult instance, yet we still struggle with it. we may outgear the encounters, but in icc25 there will be encounters that nullify any gear edge if people aren't aware of the mechanics of a fight and how to beat them.

as always, if anyone has any questions or concerns, please let me know or post away here.

[WarmApplePie]

Ahh yeah I was there for that. In all fairness I don't remember anyone asking Fragen which toon he WANTED to play, he's just always been asked to come on his priest because we're always short healers. The gearscore (I know, I know.) of his Hunter was over 5k before the trinket it could easily be his main and this is just a case of nobody ever asking him about it. Believe me guys, I cried when it dropped too. My shammy is still using a Darkmoon Card. But if the question is strictly one of, "Which toon is your main?" then I'm glad his roll wasn't restricted because I don't think the question was ever asked. Since Nagashi and Daghi are no longer playing with us there are hunter spots open and I welcome Vermoria and Rorlan to the raid. Also; FYI, nothing should cap hunter spots at 2. The Crisis main raid usually has 2-3 and the alt raid has had 4-5 the last two weeks. They are great on Lady Deathwhisper because they can attack both the melee and ranged targets effectively and they are obviously good on Deathbringer Saurfang. I think Moirean and Shootinboogs are also geared hunter mains in our guild and should not be excluded based just off of the Hunter spots being filled.

[WarmApplePie]

One more thing I'd like to add. If you do wish to restrict some of the top tier items such as weapons and trinkets you already have the foundation in place to do it fairly. Players with the rank of "Casual Raider" could be given lower priority than "Raider". Just PLEASE PLEASE if you do this make it a tangible measure such as Attendance or Performance and not something pointless like how you app to the guild.

When we're struggling to get 25 people then we need to thank every *casual* that comes for their help (Other people have said this, I'm just too lazy to go find the quote). Anyone who has made it to X=(1 to 15) number of boss kills in the last Y=(1,2,3) weeks has a percentage of attendance. Find the average and call the top half Raiders and the bottom have Casual Raiders, then deduct points for poor performance if you want. I prefer a much higher number like 75% or 80% attendance to be considered a Raider but I know lots of casuals that can't face reality and hate being called casual. So if knocking it down to 50% or even lower would appease them then so be it.


DISCLAIMER = This whole post only matters if you start restricting *special* gear for Raiders. (Which would make sense, since they are more likely to be here when we're downing Arthas as used in Inori's initial post.)

[thandrenn]

Who said anything about limiting the number of Hunters?

On the issue of Fragen / Vermoria, his Hunter (Vermoria) wasn't ranked high enough to get Calendar invites (presumably, he never asked for it), which I'm guessing is why he only brought Fragen (who is), and because we were often short on heals.

Fragen / Vermoria is very well geared and topped the DM on at least one fight. If it was an undergeared alt (which I probably wouldn't have allowed into the raid to begin with), then I might be annoyed. As it is, I'm fine with the trinket going to him. He's declared that as his raiding main and I fixed that toon's rank so now he'll be getting Calendar invites.

As for gear restrictions, I'd prefer not to restrict any gear, but as Loot Master I do reserve the right to make judgment calls as necessary for the betterment of the raid and guild. For example, a super-awesome tank or healing trinket drop and a person who doesn't tank or healer our 25's rolls. Most likely it won't be going to them, regardless of DKP. I don't really foresee this happening though as everyone seems to be on the level with that.

Cutting this post short. Gotta login 4 raid.

Lok'tar ogar!