DKP correction
DKP correction
At SSC last week i agreed to purchase the robe of hateful echoes.I did so after being told it was 69 DKP.I had to think for a bit since it was an upgrade for me but i am careful to pick and choose what gear will benefit me the most.After being charged 90 DKP for this item,i asked 3 different people and got 3 different values for this item,and then checked the spreadsheet only to find it said the cost was 128 DKP I realize that its never fun to be the person that has to compute these things and keep track of them,but i do hope a correction to the spreadsheet can be made,as well as having a set procedure such as "/rsay the dagger of pointy stabbing is 55 DKP,BID NOW".Clearly stating the item in raid chat along with value will not only prevent mistakes,but will help insure smoother bidding imho. I was also curious if there are plans to adjust values for items since what was "uber loot" a month ago isnt of the same caliber today.Without someone at least reviewing if not adjusting loot values then as we move into Mt Hyjal things are going to be much more costly once we burn through certain encounters and use spare time to go back and clear SSC etc. These are my thoughts what are yours
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
DKP correction
After some poking around it appears that with someone dedicated a site such as http://www.dkpsystem.com/ could greatly assist in helping us to maintain DKP.I would be more than willing to contribute the minor cost involved in a yearly fee,but alas my knowledge of some of the functions is less than others. These are my thoughts what are yours
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
DKP correction
I am the idiot that told him ..... "if it's an upgrade speak up in raid quickly, it's only 69 DKP" ....thinking that all loots from Hydross were 69 DKP because that's all I've ever seen people charged, I thought it was the standard price for her items 
I understand the need to keep moving but could we stop for a few mins after each boss and sort loots properly, with prices mentioned when the loot is linked, so we know what we're paying, rather then taking 5/10 minutes afk at random spots through the instance? Make boss deaths (or ours) our "quick afk times"? At least that way one of our sheepers won't be stuck back at the boss with the 10 people who are interested in loot, getting growled at for not sheeping their mob lol 
I understand the need to keep moving but could we stop for a few mins after each boss and sort loots properly, with prices mentioned when the loot is linked, so we know what we're paying, rather then taking 5/10 minutes afk at random spots through the instance? Make boss deaths (or ours) our "quick afk times"? At least that way one of our sheepers won't be stuck back at the boss with the 10 people who are interested in loot, getting growled at for not sheeping their mob lol DKP correction
I think this is one of the reasons guilds have separate DKP pools for the various Tier instances. There's no incentive to get that small (necessary) upgrade from SSC/TK once we move into the T6 instances. I understand people wanting to save their points for the better stuff ... but a part of me dies when we shard something that is an upgrade for some shithead who decided he would carry less weight in the meanwhile and get something better later. Just another complexity to the DKP system. I hate it really -- even though I have an arguably unfair perspective...Deathrow wrote I was also curious if there are plans to adjust values for items since what was "uber loot" a month ago isnt of the same caliber today.Without someone at least reviewing if not adjusting loot values then as we move into Mt Hyjal things are going to be much more costly once we burn through certain encounters and use spare time to go back and clear SSC etc.
DKP correction
I think that looks beautiful actually ... sure beats building it! I wonder if it would function as a plug-in -- or if we can just use their DKP module ..Deathrow wrote After some poking around it appears that with someone dedicated a site such as http://www.dkpsystem.com/ could greatly assist in helping us to maintain DKP.I would be more than willing to contribute the minor cost involved in a yearly fee,but alas my knowledge of some of the functions is less than others. These are my thoughts what are yours
DKP correction
Is there some way to find out if this would meet our needs?If it will as i said i would be more than happy to cover the nominal yearly fee.
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
DKP correction
Right now we have a fairly simple DKP system, and I'm sure this would meet our needs. It appears that it's only a plug in if you are already part of their managed guild website ... That is, $20 a year -- +20$ more per year for the managed DKP system. I think their forum stuff looks great, but it's not anything that we currently need to upgrade. As far as I'm personally concerned, the person with the most enthusiasm towards running the process should be in charge, Akuma seems to have been the only one not to take the step backwards when we were originally looking for a manager. You're most definately welcome to pursue it. 
The only caveat would be the need for that person to either be present at or keep abreast of all the details in a raid, which in your case would require someone else to track it for you. I noticed they had a plug-in, so maybe this is a non-issue - but again, we need a champion to start waving a flag before we all shuffle into some sort of line.
The only caveat would be the need for that person to either be present at or keep abreast of all the details in a raid, which in your case would require someone else to track it for you. I noticed they had a plug-in, so maybe this is a non-issue - but again, we need a champion to start waving a flag before we all shuffle into some sort of line. DKP correction
Although I haven't looked at all the stuff yet, I would be interested in helping with the dkp in something like this. My pre-bc guild had a nice site for dkp and it really helped letting everyone be informed with what was going on with dkp. I dunno how much techincal experience would be needed but I'm willing to learn.
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Akumabarai
- Posts: 207
- Joined: August 9th, 2007, 4:08 am
DKP correction
I guess I'll throw in my 2cents.
Yes we should always be stopping for loot, all 25 of us. It's a very hectic time with some people making some tough decisions. Perhaps a screenshot or two first, but afterwards the loot distribution takes almost as much concentration as the boss fight for some people. This also means keep vent and raid chat clear and on the topic of loot until all the pretty purples & oranges have been pried outta the big bad bosses hands. Extra BS during this time means some people can't ask the "is this an upgrade to me" to the raid slowing us all down. The raid leader needs more time to properly indicate costs of items and manage the need for an item, and the people that want stuff are weighing their need of the item. If we took the time, this issue would have hopefully not come up.
Now, I also fully agree that we shouldn't be spending 30 min distributing loot. Less time doing so means more time taking down bigger and badder bosses. If you want to speed up distributing loot, do your research before hand. Know what items will be upgrades for you, and plan out your own progression. Use some of the gear sandboxing tools available, or EJ item lists/spreadsheets, or the mod atlas loot, or ask the guild during an off raid night. Basically, come prepared.
Since we are also on the topic of DKP I also wanted to ask how much dkp is worth to people? From taking down just 3 bosses this last Tuesday raiders earned about 66 points. That's one night of individual effort for the worth of a T5 equivalent piece of gear. Last week was 61 points. The week of 04-08 was 91 points. To me at least, a T5 equivalent item seems worth it for about a week of work put into raiding. Yes there are a few people that like to have large numbers next to their name to attempt to prove a bigger epeen, shame on them for not getting equipped and helping us progress. I honestly wish there was a way to reward for "spending" dkp, but alas I can't think of any. There are also others that get caught up in what we do for Gruul/Mag and try and milk the 10-15dkp braket, thinking that some of these items are worth only that. If your gonna use the item, it's worth more than a measly 10 dkp.
I also wanted to re-iterate that we are on a zero sum system. Well, almost on a zero sum system. This means that it's perfectly ok to go negative. There's nothing wrong with it. It shows you are gearing up, you can still get loot even when negative. Just look at Beiner, he's aimin for the bottom of the barrel, and still going.
As far as the current spreadsheet is concerned, yes it may be difficult to read, and kind of painful to update. However even if we were to move to a different fancier presentation, we would probably still maintain the same zero sum logic that goes behind it. I have been investigating moving to eqdkp, and have actually hacked the source to do the exact same logic that we have in the spreadsheet. I just haven't been that bored lately, and need to move to a public SQL server, and need to figure out website issues. Although I'll take a peek at that site once I get home tonight.
With the current system, we still have the ability to change item values, however I'm not sure if we should. I'll have to leave this up to the other officers to decide if we want to think about doing this.
Yes we should always be stopping for loot, all 25 of us. It's a very hectic time with some people making some tough decisions. Perhaps a screenshot or two first, but afterwards the loot distribution takes almost as much concentration as the boss fight for some people. This also means keep vent and raid chat clear and on the topic of loot until all the pretty purples & oranges have been pried outta the big bad bosses hands. Extra BS during this time means some people can't ask the "is this an upgrade to me" to the raid slowing us all down. The raid leader needs more time to properly indicate costs of items and manage the need for an item, and the people that want stuff are weighing their need of the item. If we took the time, this issue would have hopefully not come up.
Now, I also fully agree that we shouldn't be spending 30 min distributing loot. Less time doing so means more time taking down bigger and badder bosses. If you want to speed up distributing loot, do your research before hand. Know what items will be upgrades for you, and plan out your own progression. Use some of the gear sandboxing tools available, or EJ item lists/spreadsheets, or the mod atlas loot, or ask the guild during an off raid night. Basically, come prepared.
Since we are also on the topic of DKP I also wanted to ask how much dkp is worth to people? From taking down just 3 bosses this last Tuesday raiders earned about 66 points. That's one night of individual effort for the worth of a T5 equivalent piece of gear. Last week was 61 points. The week of 04-08 was 91 points. To me at least, a T5 equivalent item seems worth it for about a week of work put into raiding. Yes there are a few people that like to have large numbers next to their name to attempt to prove a bigger epeen, shame on them for not getting equipped and helping us progress. I honestly wish there was a way to reward for "spending" dkp, but alas I can't think of any. There are also others that get caught up in what we do for Gruul/Mag and try and milk the 10-15dkp braket, thinking that some of these items are worth only that. If your gonna use the item, it's worth more than a measly 10 dkp.
I also wanted to re-iterate that we are on a zero sum system. Well, almost on a zero sum system. This means that it's perfectly ok to go negative. There's nothing wrong with it. It shows you are gearing up, you can still get loot even when negative. Just look at Beiner, he's aimin for the bottom of the barrel, and still going.
As far as the current spreadsheet is concerned, yes it may be difficult to read, and kind of painful to update. However even if we were to move to a different fancier presentation, we would probably still maintain the same zero sum logic that goes behind it. I have been investigating moving to eqdkp, and have actually hacked the source to do the exact same logic that we have in the spreadsheet. I just haven't been that bored lately, and need to move to a public SQL server, and need to figure out website issues. Although I'll take a peek at that site once I get home tonight.
With the current system, we still have the ability to change item values, however I'm not sure if we should. I'll have to leave this up to the other officers to decide if we want to think about doing this.
DKP correction
one thing that i will point out with our system, is that lowering dkp vaules of items will jsut mean we earn less dkp per week. I also feel like we should not be able to bid on items for our main spec but thats a whole differnt subject.
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Akumabarai
- Posts: 207
- Joined: August 9th, 2007, 4:08 am
DKP correction
Humm... re-reading my post, I guess I was just ranting in general (not at anyone in particular) and not solving the original question. Sorry about that 
Deathrow: If you want a modification done, talk to the raid leader from that night.
Really there's 3 issues here.
1. Not announcing the dkp value of an item are raid organization issues. Responsibility of the individual raid leader.
2. Item values, bonuses, and math behind a zero sum system are part of the DKP system. Responsibility of all the officers.
3. DKP storage/presentation. Responsibility of... ok fine.. me.
I can't help with issues 1/2, as I attempt to remain neutral, and just throw in my .02 every so often.
If there's a problem or issue with #3, I'm more than curious to hear it as I mainly stay on the back end and have been staring at it too much.
Yes it's not as prety as a php driven web interface, database back end. But it's free complete with bandwidth, not dependent on anything, and multiple people can manage it.
Deathrow: If you want a modification done, talk to the raid leader from that night.
Really there's 3 issues here.
1. Not announcing the dkp value of an item are raid organization issues. Responsibility of the individual raid leader.
2. Item values, bonuses, and math behind a zero sum system are part of the DKP system. Responsibility of all the officers.
3. DKP storage/presentation. Responsibility of... ok fine.. me.
I can't help with issues 1/2, as I attempt to remain neutral, and just throw in my .02 every so often.
If there's a problem or issue with #3, I'm more than curious to hear it as I mainly stay on the back end and have been staring at it too much.
Yes it's not as prety as a php driven web interface, database back end. But it's free complete with bandwidth, not dependent on anything, and multiple people can manage it.
DKP correction
Hehe, I feel like I am getting singled out here. It sucks when you are wearing a craftable set that is T5/T6 equiv. If I were to replace 1 piece it had better cover my set bonus too which is ~45 spell damage... I don't think there is any belt or gloves out there that will give me that. Also, I have no problems with taking minor upgrades, but when that minor upgrade to me is a huge upgrade to someone else I fell that it will benefit the whole raid more to pass. Is a 6 spell damage and 1/10% crit going to help the raid more than a 20 spell damage and 1% crit upgrade to someone else? But alas, there are things coming soon that will benefit me greatly and you can bet I will be going negative. For me it has nothing to do with epeen... just would rather people take huge upgrades over my minor ones.Akumabarai wrote Yes there are a few people that like to have large numbers next to their name to attempt to prove a bigger epeen, shame on them for not getting equipped and helping us progress. I honestly wish there was a way to reward for "spending" dkp, but alas I can't think of any.
DKP correction
After running as many loot drops as i have ( i went back to my old guilds website and realized that we managed on some raid nights 75 loots items) that using an automated site made things a whole lot easier on whomever was keeping track of this issue.It is not my intention to point fingers at anyone here,i merely want to offer (if you feel that it would benefit us) to purchase free of strings this dkp management system. I dont know if i would be the proper one to offer to run it since i can only attend one night a week,and thats not always going to be stable.I can offer to support my guildmates in this painful time of growth by buying the yearly subscription and perhaps making your life easier.Thanks for at least addressing the issue.I have had a whole lot of experience (some of it really bad) in dealing with the pains involved in loot,and the one simple conclusion i was able to arrive at was the more simple and standard you make the loot issue,the smoother and less bothersome it will become Again let me reiterate here that i am only trying to help and not cast aspersions
Blastine Deathrow Darkehn - Melting your face or healing it back on since Blackrock Depths
DKP correction
I dont think he was singling you out -- everyone who took the time to craft the amazing cloth gear we had available should be high on the charts, and thereby have first picks at the stuff that is outside of the sets. No matter what loot you take or dont take -- you still have a very tiny epeen.mahonri wrote Akumabarai wrote Yes there are a few people that like to have large numbers next to their name to attempt to prove a bigger epeen, shame on them for not getting equipped and helping us progress. I honestly wish there was a way to reward for "spending" dkp, but alas I can't think of any. Hehe, I feel like I am getting singled out here. It sucks when you are wearing a craftable set that is T5/T6 equiv. If I were to replace 1 piece it had better cover my set bonus too which is ~45 spell damage... I don't think there is any belt or gloves out there that will give me that. Also, I have no problems with taking minor upgrades, but when that minor upgrade to me is a huge upgrade to someone else I fell that it will benefit the whole raid more to pass. Is a 6 spell damage and 1/10% crit going to help the raid more than a 20 spell damage and 1% crit upgrade to someone else? But alas, there are things coming soon that will benefit me greatly and you can bet I will be going negative. For me it has nothing to do with epeen... just would rather people take huge upgrades over my minor ones.
))) DKP correction
AWwww, thanks man!Chuunks wrote mahonri wrote Akumabarai wrote Yes there are a few people that like to have large numbers next to their name to attempt to prove a bigger epeen, shame on them for not getting equipped and helping us progress. I honestly wish there was a way to reward for "spending" dkp, but alas I can't think of any. Hehe, I feel like I am getting singled out here. It sucks when you are wearing a craftable set that is T5/T6 equiv. If I were to replace 1 piece it had better cover my set bonus too which is ~45 spell damage... I don't think there is any belt or gloves out there that will give me that. Also, I have no problems with taking minor upgrades, but when that minor upgrade to me is a huge upgrade to someone else I fell that it will benefit the whole raid more to pass. Is a 6 spell damage and 1/10% crit going to help the raid more than a 20 spell damage and 1% crit upgrade to someone else? But alas, there are things coming soon that will benefit me greatly and you can bet I will be going negative. For me it has nothing to do with epeen... just would rather people take huge upgrades over my minor ones. I dont think he was singling you out -- everyone who took the time to craft the amazing cloth gear we had available should be high on the charts, and thereby have first picks at the stuff that is outside of the sets. No matter what loot you take or dont take -- you still have a very tiny epeen.
DKP correction
if none of the other online options work out well, i have some ideas for building a system... assuming i ever stop being lazy and / or stop playing so much
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Akumabarai
- Posts: 207
- Joined: August 9th, 2007, 4:08 am
DKP correction
Well, before we spend time and effort into something new, I'd like to know if there really is a problem with the display of dkp. Issues with #1/#2 as indicated above aside since we will have those with any system, is there anything wrong with #3? I am *not* being defensive here, I'm honestly curious. I've heard absolutely nothing from anyone with regards to the spreadsheet and have just assumed that no one's complained so it must be working. When you write an essay, after you've polished it, you need it revewed by someone else because you have been staring at it for so long it just makes perfect sence to you, but only you. So I'm perfectly open to comments. I belive most of the grief with dkp lies in the item values, bidding, & etc, which lies in category #1/#2, which moving to a new fancy presentation will not solve. Once again, I attempt to stay out of issues relating to #1/#2, and just do what the rest of the officers want. In those issues I just kinda go with the flow, as it seems to somewhat work.
DKP correction
i think it is fine, the only sugestion i would make is maybe ordering it by name insted of dkp total, but i dont think that would really affect anything.Akumabarai wrote Well, before we spend time and effort into something new, I'd like to know if there really is a problem with the display of dkp. Issues with #1/#2 as indicated above aside since we will have those with any system, is there anything wrong with #3? I am *not* being defensive here, I'm honestly curious. I've heard absolutely nothing from anyone with regards to the spreadsheet and have just assumed that no one's complained so it must be working. When you write an essay, after you've polished it, you need it revewed by someone else because you have been staring at it for so long it just makes perfect sence to you, but only you. So I'm perfectly open to comments. I belive most of the grief with dkp lies in the item values, bidding, & etc, which lies in category #1/#2, which moving to a new fancy presentation will not solve. Once again, I attempt to stay out of issues relating to #1/#2, and just do what the rest of the officers want. In those issues I just kinda go with the flow, as it seems to somewhat work.
DKP correction
I've always thought of the Spreadsheet as a semi-temporary solution until we find something better. I can't imagine it's all that easy for you to maintain. But, it gets the job done and atm we don't have anything else.
I really like how eqDKP works though. Look at this:
http://www.fates-hand.net/t5-dkp/listmembers.php
Pretty cool. You can click on a person's name to see their DKP history too. I haven't delved too much into it on the technical side, but it seems to require MySQL at least. I recall a while back Tim saying that might be doable. Maybe he could chime in here?
If we end up just sticking with what we have now, that's cool too. I just like the tons of extra info eqDKP shows.
I really like how eqDKP works though. Look at this:
http://www.fates-hand.net/t5-dkp/listmembers.php
Pretty cool. You can click on a person's name to see their DKP history too. I haven't delved too much into it on the technical side, but it seems to require MySQL at least. I recall a while back Tim saying that might be doable. Maybe he could chime in here?
If we end up just sticking with what we have now, that's cool too. I just like the tons of extra info eqDKP shows.
DKP correction
i think the spreadsheet is fine as it is. i don't know how much effort it takes to update, but when it comes to such things i tend to look for the easiest solution. trying out some of the mentioned web sites might make things easier. worth the cost? maybe, although trying to make other people's system work to suit our needs may prove troublesome. building something might make things better. would it be worth the effort? i dunno, but i figured i'd throw it out there, and i have grand dreams of a spiffy guild web site with roster / dkp / raid scheduling / whatever that will never come to fruition if i continue spending my time doing silly things like sleeping and trying to solo the baron runAkumabarai wrote Well, before we spend time and effort into something new, I'd like to know if there really is a problem with the display of dkp. Issues with #1/#2 as indicated above aside since we will have those with any system, is there anything wrong with #3? I am *not* being defensive here, I'm honestly curious. I've heard absolutely nothing from anyone with regards to the spreadsheet and have just assumed that no one's complained so it must be working. When you write an essay, after you've polished it, you need it revewed by someone else because you have been staring at it for so long it just makes perfect sence to you, but only you. So I'm perfectly open to comments. I belive most of the grief with dkp lies in the item values, bidding, & etc, which lies in category #1/#2, which moving to a new fancy presentation will not solve. Once again, I attempt to stay out of issues relating to #1/#2, and just do what the rest of the officers want. In those issues I just kinda go with the flow, as it seems to somewhat work.
anywho, twas not my intention to cast aside all the hard work you've put into it, it is very much appreciated