DKP FAQ - Working Version

Han · Post by **Han** » February 20th, 2008, 10:49 am

To reduce confusion, I will be collecting some common questions about our DKP system used in our guild and answering them here. Q: What type of DKP System do we use? A: It is a modified zero-sum DKP system. This means that each run, we take the sum of the DKP costs of the loots that dropped, and divy it up amongst all the raiders who were present. We modified it to add bonus points per boss kill, guild first boss kill, being on time, and sitting out to let someone else in. The basic concepts of zero sum DKP still apply. Q: Why do we use DKP? A: We use DKP to provide a fair system to distribute loot amongst the raid. The intentions are to reward consistent raiders and distribute loot across the guild in order to progress quicker. We polled members, debated the pros and cons of DKP in general and also specific systems and types before deciding on our current system. Q: Do we use DKP for all raids? A: We use it for all 25 man raid content. Q: How do I know how much DKP I have? A: Check it here Q: When loot drops from a boss, what happens? A: The raid leader will look at the loot, and then link the first piece. If it is a Main Tanking item, it will be passed to our main tank that night and he will pay the DKP for it. If its not an upgrade for main tanking, then it will open to rolls. Anyone who is interested in the item (for their main raiding spec) will roll on the item. The person with the most DKP gets the item. If two people are even on DKP, the roll is used to determine the winner. You should know your DKP going into the night so you can be sure there are no mistakes. Please speak up in vent or raid if you would like an explanation of why the loot is being distributed as it is Q: So the Main Tank gets free loots? A: The main tank gets loots passed to him automatically that will help his Main Tanking gear set. This is in the guilds best interest since when he drops, we wipe. He still has to pay the DKP though. Q: What if nobody wants the item for their main raiding spec? A: If there are no rolls for the item in question, the raid leader will open the floor to off-spec rolls (including PvP sets) at 1/3 DKP cost. If you are found using this item in a raid for your main raiding spec, you will be docked the full cost of the item (plus the 1/3 you already paid). This does not apply to times when you are asked to heal as a feral druid or dps as a prot warrior etc. Bottom line, if you are going to wear it while raiding on your main spec, you should roll on it at full price. Off-spec is really for that, off spec gear in case you switch specs in the future or are asked to spot-heal for a fight etc. Q: What if nobody wants the item for an off-spec? A: If its really that bad of an item, the raid leader can open it to free novelty rolls or we will shard it and put it in the bank. Q: Can I have negative DKP? A: Yes, the zero sum system is generally more fair because a lot of people will be negative, so new raiders have a chance at some loots when they first start out. We are trying to create a minimum barrier to entry for raiders. Q: What if I bring an alt to the raid? A: If you choose to bring an alt (one that is appropriately geared/enchanted/gemmed for the content), you will accumulate DKP on that character and you can only use it for that character. If the raid leader specifically asks you to bring an alt due to the needs of the raid, you can choose to have your DKP applied to your main character, or your alt. Q: I have to respec every week for raiding because we are short on [tanks/healers/dps] for a specific encounter, do I get bonus DKP for this? A: If you are asked to respec for a raid, the cost can be paid from the guild bank funds. Please speak with the GuildMaster or someone with a title of Organizer for reimbursement. This does not apply to people who spec only for pvp all week and then respec to raid, and this mainly happens for specific encounters. Q: I am being asked to gear specifically for a role in a progression encounter, do I still have to pay DKP for items for this set of gear?
A: If the guild needs a specific set of gear to tackle an encounter, you will get the gear either at a reduced price, or free. It really depends on the item in question and how good it is outside the specific needs for the encounter. Example: Warlock tank for leotheras needs very high stam and fire resist.... Raid leader may opt to pass a very stam heavy item (trinket or something) to the warlock gearing up for it. Q: I don't like it, who do I complain to? A: Please post in the general forum with any complaints/comments/suggestions to improve the system. This is constantly evolving (although we will do our best to minimize drastic rule changes midway ala blizzard), and the members of this guild are what created this system (that includes you). Please help us out and give feedback...

Han · Post by **Han** » February 20th, 2008, 10:49 am

Reserved

Han · Post by **Han** » February 20th, 2008, 10:49 am

I will work on this for a while and field questions, and then Draven can help me make a sticky locked thread in a few days.

jerome736 · Post by **jerome736** » February 20th, 2008, 10:51 am

Have you guys worked out the bonuses for on time, first boss kills, etc. yet?

Han · Post by **Han** » February 20th, 2008, 10:55 am

On time bonus is currently set at 3 dkp and boss kills are at 1 dkp, we are still working out the first boss kill bonus.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » February 20th, 2008, 11:22 am

I would like to point out that this is something we're just trying to figure out now ... and ALL YOUR INPUT IS IMPORTANT. Once this thread gets finalized and locked -- those will be the rules. Help us define them now ...

WarmApplePie · Post by **WarmApplePie** » February 20th, 2008, 1:16 pm

Just wondering how much DKP we got last night? My only exp with DKP was second hand watching a friends guild raid. They would often have hundreds of DKP.. With our zero-sum system it seems like if you get 30 DKP you're really unlucky. The link on the main page to our DKP system says 25man content will get DKP.. Stupid question: Does that include Gruul and Mag? ( I assume it does)

jerome736 · Post by **jerome736** » February 20th, 2008, 1:47 pm

We haven't been including Gruul's on our DKP AFAIK, there was talk that the gear wasn't necessarily that big of an improvement on most of our kara gear and the fact we already have it on farm status. The Zero-sum system means your totals should be fairly small, in fact many people will be in the negatives at least initially. I'm not sure where you are pulling 30DKP from...lets say someone gets an item worth...130 DKP points. They have 130DKP subtracted from their total DKP amount (for the sake of simplicity he has 0) so he has -130 DKP. The rest of the raid members divy up the 130 DKP spent on the tiem, so everyone else would get something like 5.4 DKP as a result of the item. That is how I understand it at least. The numbers seem like they would inflate over time (on-time bonus, boss kill bonus, first downing bonus, etc) but the bonuses are so miniscule that the system would have to be in place for a lengthy amount of time before it beings to matter.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » February 20th, 2008, 3:58 pm

I think we've reconsidered and will be including all 25 man loot in DKP ..

Beiner · Post by **Beiner** » February 20th, 2008, 4:22 pm

Does this also mean that gruul's loot will now cost dkp?

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » February 20th, 2008, 8:49 pm

Beiner wroteDoes this also mean that gruul's loot will now cost dkp?

Soon, yes. John's working on a DKP list for those items.

Riggins · Post by **Riggins** » February 20th, 2008, 11:19 pm

"Anyone who is interested in the item (for their main raiding spec) will roll on the item. The person with the most DKP gets the item. If two people are even on DKP, the roll is used to determine the winner" Seems like it'd be clearer if rolls are just used when people have the same amount of DKP. Maybe folks could just say in raid if they're intersted in it otherwise?

drp · Post by **drp** » February 21st, 2008, 1:18 am

i dont know hwo fair that seems to people who have been going into gruuls sense we started and yet to recieve a T4 token

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » February 21st, 2008, 6:09 am

We're starting a new system of fairness - trying to improve on what we have done in the past. What we decided was fair in the past was to /roll -- and the people who didn't receive their T4 token lost in that prior system of fairness. No one got a Dragonspine yet, and I know a number of people are going to want it ...lots of people still need their T4 still or might consider getting it with the PvE tokens buying PvP loot now .. etc. There is no perfect solution, we *should* have started measuring DKP before starting 25 man content but we elected to keep it simple for the time being. IMHO - DKP for all 25-man content is the right thing to do.

Han · Post by **Han** » February 21st, 2008, 8:19 am

drp wrote i dont know hwo fair that seems to people who have been going into gruuls sense we started and yet to recieve a T4 token

How is this not fair? You will have less people who want to spend dkp on it, and therefore you will get it. Someone who its only a minor upgrade for would have rolled on it in the past, and now they will think twice about it and you have a better chance to get it. Also, lets say it goes 3 more weeks before you actually get your token, now you have accumulated a lot more dkp from participating in raids that you can use to spend on t5 stuff. If you want to talk about fairness, I think its not fair that certain raid members enchant their epic gear that their guild helped them get and others show up without enchants and expect more gear to come their way. Until you stop gimping the raid by being selfish, you have no place talking about fairness.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » February 21st, 2008, 8:45 am

Holy crap ... Let me preface this by saying -- You are a very attentive and capable raider, as much as you might drive me nuts at times I think you've definately earned a raid position ... you have excellent situational awareness in a battle that is oftentimes and IMHO key to victory. Honestly -- I had no idea, but it prompted to me look assuming you were missing one or two enchants. You have ONE f'ing enchant -- ONE on your bracer -- +5 health. What kind of crap is this? This is your ELEMENTAL gear too, not some offspec stuff you're playing with -- this is the gear that you got in such a heated debate over you dropped raid and it's not enchanted weeks later. GG. G m'f'ing G. Look to your left and right in our next raid and see that everyone else is doing what you're not. If you feel good about that -- I have a real problem that goes beyond whatever you actually contribute to a raid. I tell you what -- in one week, it's either enchanted or someone better to remove my ability to gkick. You dont even have a freaking ARMOR KIT on them ... *mutter*

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » February 21st, 2008, 9:01 am

Actually -- I'm going to backpedal. My initial reaction was pretty harsh -- I wont gkick, got caught up in the heat of the moment. Sorry about that .. But realistically -- Drp is better geared and you've enchanted 5/8 items. If you want to bring Mahatma, you have to do your homework. You'll still be welcome on Drp (though i would still encourage getting 8/8 enchanted on him as well).

jerome736 · Post by **jerome736** » February 21st, 2008, 1:07 pm

Yeah...I was going to say check out my enchants (I have every healing enchant I can possibly have on my gear), but I have all my ZA/stuff on when I logged off so the guild can get credit for it. Raiding is a collective effort, if you don't take that extra step to help out the guild, then we will all fail as a collective group. If you need help with mats and farming, etc. I'd much rather you ask or beg for help than to have you not be able to bring your 100% to the raid.

Han · Post by **Han** » February 25th, 2008, 10:36 am

Yes it will be. I will talk to the people keeping track of it and make sure it gets posted. Sorry again for the delay

Han · Post by **Han** » February 25th, 2008, 10:44 am

I have updated the FAQ with the link to the spreadsheet we are currently using/maintaining. We will be holding a couple of meeting to decide whether to continue use of this spreadsheet/format or use some sort of software to keep track. Please be patient, and I will share everything in this thread.