Here we go again?
Here we go again?
I'm fine w/ dkp, had a lot of experience w/ it. Having a dkp system where items have a fixed price works great...for a while. The problem is eventually if someone is way in the lead. Say caster1 has 290 dkp and caster2 has 230 dkp and items cost ~20 dkp and the 2 casters have ~the same attendance, caster1 can take several items and not lose his lead, also as everyone on a whole accumulates a lot of dkp it's going to be harder for new members to get items because they'll be so far below everyone else. I'm sure there's ways to avoid this, i'm just trying to bring this up before it becomes a problem.
Here we go again?
Well you could always stitch to the top of it Quani's "round robin" method. So you dont have to trace the archives, essentially - you have any sort of set DKP method, but within your class you have a separate order. For the sake of argument, lets say: Quani, Dudepal, Fionna. Priestly Vestment of Awesomeness drops and all 3 have the 65 DKP, Quani gets the right of first refusal -- Dudepal second -- Fionna third. If any of them decides to spend their DKP, they are moved to the last in the list.Personally I'm okay with pretty much anything, even a loot council. I trust you guys, and I know that *I* will be making decisions to try and further the goals of kicking the crap out of 25-man content.
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Yeah, I guess I'd be down with whatever but my main concern would be a fair distribution of points. I know some people who used to run kara a lot, but who have pretty much maxed out on gear and don't go aymore there would fall behind pretty quick on points. I mean, even if we awarded like 10 points for a kara boss and 30 for SSC and 20 for Gruul or something, Initially anyone that ran kara would have a significantly greater number of points. Although, I suppose this would be fixed pretty easily if we just didn't award points for kara (or just a separate set of points). I think our system has worked reasonably fairly in the past there, mostly because it only has 10 people. I guess I'd personally be in favor of a loot council, just out of simplicity sake.
Here we go again?
I heard of a point system similar to DKP, but my friend did not know the name of it. What it did was solved the above possibility--If someone had a lot of points, they could get several items. With this other method, the items would not have a number of DKP points they are worth. When an item drops, whoever wanted it would silently bid on the item and whisper the bid to the Raid Leader. For instance if something I wanted dropped, I could bid up to my points. Highest bid wins. Those points spent would be distributed to the rest of the raid except a small portion, which would be put in a side pot. At the end of the raid, whoever is left with the raid group would split the pot. This would reward those that stayed till the end. Right now this isnt an issue as we are not going very far, but when we get some of these bosses down it may be a bigger issue.
Here we go again?
I don't think we would be counting the 10 man content into the points, just 25 mans. The kara loot system seems to work fairly well as it is.dudepal wroteYeah, I guess I'd be down with whatever but my main concern would be a fair distribution of points. I know some people who used to run kara a lot, but who have pretty much maxed out on gear and don't go aymore there would fall behind pretty quick on points. I mean, even if we awarded like 10 points for a kara boss and 30 for SSC and 20 for Gruul or something, Initially anyone that ran kara would have a significantly greater number of points. Although, I suppose this would be fixed pretty easily if we just didn't award points for kara (or just a separate set of points). I think our system has worked reasonably fairly in the past there, mostly because it only has 10 people. I guess I'd personally be in favor of a loot council, just out of simplicity sake.
Here we go again?
So in the end, who makes the decision? I guess I've never really understood how the "power" structure works in FA 
Here we go again?
Not totally sure, but it needs to get taken care of fairly soon... Another raid week is comin up. Some stuff I found: DKP Goals Effort equals reward. A long time player should have a better chance to get an item they want than a first time raider. Must be fair and unbiased for all players Strengthen those that will further help the guild. To do this you must reward players that participate and help the guild over time become stronger, thereby helping the guild become stronger . To promote participation in raids. Even if the raid does not have an item that you need, you will gain points that can be used in future raids to et items you need. Be an easy system to manage Zero-Sum DKP Example: The following group is in a DKP rated instance with the starting totals shown: Name DKP Messiah (Mage) 15 Ratboy (Hunter) 5 Boomjack (Druid) 0 Ralphedel (Warrior) -5 Ethec (Priest) -15 Total 0 After killing the first boss a caster staff drops that was assigned a value of 10 points. Messiah, Boomjack and Ethec all want it. Messiah has the highest current DKP so is awarded the staff, which costs him 10 points. Each member of the party is then also awarded 2 points for the drop (10 points / 5 players), which leaves us with the following. Name DKP Ratboy (Hunter) 7 Messiah (Mage) 7 Boomjack (Druid) 2 Ralphedel (Warrior) -3 Ethec (Priest) -13 Total 0 The next boss drops 2 items, an Axe worth 15 points and a casters ring worth 10 points. Both Ratboy and Ralphedel are interested in the axe, but Ratboy has the most points so gets it. Ethec is the only caster than wants the ring (Messiah and Boomjack already have it) . Ratboy spends 15 points and Ethec spends 10 (driving himself further into the hole, but still getting items!). Also 25 points were dropped so each player earns 5. The chart would now look like this: Name DKP Messiah (Mage) 12 Boomjack (Druid) 7 Ralphedel (Warrior) 2 Ratboy (Hunter) -3 Ethec (Priest) -18 Total 0 I like the idea of zero-sum, it is a system that is used alot on our server. I like the idea of havin weapons worth more than gear, but I think that tier gear should be worth the same as weapons. Of course we would have to use numbers that work better with 25 as that is how many of us there are. I would think that 50 for gear, and 75 for weapons and tier gear would work decent.
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Things to consider outside of "gear" vs. "weapon" is how sought after the item is -- Gruul's Spine being one example, everyone wants it.Blave posted a site a while back that had point amounts for everything starting at 25man content ... lets use someone elses work. I'll see if I can dig up the site if we agree on this method ...
Here we go again?
Ya, been lookin for that but havn't found it, so if you do that would rock lol.
Here we go again?
Mahonri described our (Fates Hand's) system pretty well. Items have a fixed value, item drops, people say they want it, and it is awarded to the highest person on the DKP list. We also split up our DKP by dungeon tiers. Gruul/Magtheridon were T4, SSC/TK T5, Hyjal/BT are T6 obviously. I've asked where the item values come from, but the only one who comes up with the values I haven't discussed the subject with. I know that in T5 weapons were in the 130-180 range (1h - 2h), t5 tokens were 133, most trinkets, rings, necklaces etc were around 75, and armor pieces were around 90-110 or so. In T6 weapons range from 140-200, t6 tokens are 144, trinkets etc range from 77 to 97ish and armor pieces range from 100 to 140ish.Starting the system, or seeding it can be an interesting job. Everyone starts at 0, so how do you decide where the items go? After applying a set of rules, if the answer is still uncertain, for the first raid or so people /roll. Usually when an item drops not many people will want it, for a variety of reasons. Some are saving their DKP for upgrades from later bosses they need more, some just don't need anything from that boss, others won't always agree on what is an upgrade and what is not. The first boss drops we had only had 1 person per item wanting said item, per item. The rules I mentioned before are very simple, and I think we have only one: you gear up the MT first. If a t5/t6 token drops and the tank wants it, the tank gets it first, no questions asked (in our situation). The reasoning behind this is that the MT carries your progression. It is the most min/maxed role in the game, and there is no room for "almost good enough." Most of the time this happens anyway and people naturally realize it, but it was important enough to us to make a rule about it. The MT is charged DKP for those items, of course, but does get first go at them. After the first few boss kills you normally have enough DKP in the system to have a leader for any one item, and the system takes care of itself from then on.Lastly, whatever DKP system you use, it should be transparent to all members. In the past I've heard of guilds having issues when a member thinks an officer is padding their DKP, or incorrectly awarding it. We use an EQ DKP website to enter and track our DKP; anyone can go to http://www.fates-hand.net/t6-dkp/listmembers.php and see me in the negatives and exactly how I got there 
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I thought everyone except the person who one was awarded points? so like in the example above, the guy who won would be subtracted 10 and everyone else would receive 2.5?
Here we go again?
I too was under the impression that it was supposed to be like that, but in this example its not... im sure that we could run it either way. I like the system, but think we also need to reward people for showing up on time by giving a small amount of points. Or maybe say that there is 50 points to be given at raid start time, and whoever is there gets to split them. Another good idea I have seen is where raiders are awarded 3-4 points per failed attempt at a boss that has never been downed before, but once it gets down no more points are awarded for trying. In zero sum you are only awarded points at loot time, so this would promote people trying when we aren't downing (but I don't think we really have this problem, it would just be nice to get points hehe).
Here we go again?
In traditional zero-sum, everyone is awarded points for a boss kill. Everyone did participate, after all. Someone has to take the loots though =)In our system we have a bonus for attending on time (5 dkp), which serves to encourage people to show up on time *and* with the necessary materials (pots, oil, repaired, buff food, and money to repair), and to provide incentive to show up when there may not be any other dkp given for pioneering nights. We also award double DKP when a pioneering boss is downed for the first time. For these reasons, its technically a modified zero-sum system, but they do help provide encouragements, and the base system of zero-sum is flexible enough to meet differing guild's needs. Whatever bonuses you guys decide are right for you will likely fit well with it.dudepal wroteI thought everyone except the person who one was awarded points? so like in the example above, the guy who won would be subtracted 10 and everyone else would receive 2.5?
Here we go again?
I like the idea of adding on-time bonus and first downing bounus, provides some motivation to get the raid going and to bang our heads on an encounter. Zero-sum seems pretty fair, i've never used it before i've known of a lot of guilds that have. There will need to be some people in charge of managing all the dkp though and sometimes that can be a burdan. Plus if we use any system for a while and decide it isn't working we can alter it or change all together, we aren't bound to anything.Baraccus wrote dudepal wroteI thought everyone except the person who one was awarded points? so like in the example above, the guy who won would be subtracted 10 and everyone else would receive 2.5?In traditional zero-sum, everyone is awarded points for a boss kill. Everyone did participate, after all. Someone has to take the loots though =)In our system we have a bonus for attending on time (5 dkp), which serves to encourage people to show up on time *and* with the necessary materials (pots, oil, repaired, buff food, and money to repair), and to provide incentive to show up when there may not be any other dkp given for pioneering nights. We also award double DKP when a pioneering boss is downed for the first time. For these reasons, its technically a modified zero-sum system, but they do help provide encouragements, and the base system of zero-sum is flexible enough to meet differing guild's needs. Whatever bonuses you guys decide are right for you will likely fit well with it.
Here we go again?
I gots a feelin about tomorrow... Lurker gonna die. We need to get something set up. Is this something we are going to do? Sound off all.
Here we go again?
I am going to pay for and demo one of those fancy schmancy dkp/guild websites this week to see what it is all about. Once I get it set up I would be more than happy to give the info to yall to try as well, and then we can make a decision as to if we want to use it or not. But for now here is what I have come up with from this whole thread. I think it is a fair system that will work for us as long as we follow the rules. Ok, so here is what I am thinking: 1. Zero-sum point system (we can call it whatever we want) with the amount the item costs/25 going back to the raid. This means that everyone is going to go in with zero points starting tonight, and once we down Lurker (and it will happen) some will walk out in the negative, and some will walk out in the positive. Tonight would be a /roll for gear night to get things going. Gotta be careful, cuz once you have the least amount of points you probably won't be getting anything for awhile. a. Zero-sum = an item drops... 5 people express desires to have the precious... must have the precious... the person with the most available dkp at the time gets the precious... the cost of the item is then divided by 25 and each raider gets that amount of points added to their total, with the reveiving raider subtracting the cost yet adding the divided amount. Example - [Wife Aggro Nullifier] (legendary worth 125 points) drops off of a boss and Onestar, Phrikk, and Chuunks all decide that they have to have it. Onestar has 134 points, Phrikk has 102 points, and Chuunks has 87 points. Onestar gets the trinket and subtracts 125 from his 134 points. The raid then gains (125 points)/(25 raiders) = 5 points per raider. Onestar ends with 14 points, Phrikk ends with 107, and Chuunks ends with 92. Onestar's homelife will now be rockin. 2. 125 points available at pull time to be split by the raiders that are in the raid group and in the actual zone that the raid is in. So if everyone was there and ready at 730 server, everyone would get 25 pointsI am saying in the zone because we often leave people outside to summon, and there is generally a few out there to protect as well. 3. We use the point values found http://www.ascendancewow.com/ascendance/dkp/items.aspx - found this in one of the old posts from the last go around. It is more complete than most of the others that I have found today. 4. Once an item has been deemed not needed by a main spec, it can be "bought" by anyone for offspec at 1/3 price or sharded for the guild bank. 5. 5 points per raider per failed attempt at a boss until it has been downed. We can call these pioneering points or whatever. I am thinking that we can probably maintain this in the same way as Akuma's raid time excel sheet thingy. Wouldn't be too hard for maybe 3 people to keep track of numbers through the raid and make sure stuff adds up at the end of the night. One of them could then update the sheet, and over the next week raiders would be encouraged to make sure the numbers are correct with what they have calculated themselves. Maybe the 3 keeping track could do it for 3 week rotations, with each person having the job of input for 1 week. Completely volunteer, and I would be more than happy to fill in on weeks that only 2 people accept. ** On a side note I think that this should only apply to post Gruul 25 mans. We have "farmed" gruuls for a month or so, and many many people have won gear... I don't think that it would be fair to have the last of 4 mages pay dkp for something that the other 3 got for free over the last 2 months and kill any chance of getting gear in SSC in the next while. (just an example, but you get the idea) If I have any more sudden thoughts I will post.
Here we go again?
Sweet, thats for demo'ing the dkp websites, they sound pretty cool. As far as people that will keep track of the dkp and whatnot, I would not mind being one of those, however, I would need a little more explanation on some of the details of the system.Also, I know that there are quite a few mods that help you keep track, and award points and stuff to the raid. I think that this would be a great idea, instead of pencil and paper, which (I know I will) is easy to screw up. Anyone have experience with the dkp in game mods?Lastly, are trash loots dkp too? I don' think anyone has mentioned anything like that. I guess they should be/are, but I am not sure.Andy
Here we go again?
I'm interested in whether we count the attempts we've made on SSC so far. We have the WWS to tell us who was there and for how long. Would that apply as well?
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I wouldnt think so... in the end it wont really matter as we are starting at zero... As for Andy, get with me on vent or something and we can go over it lol. Still need 1 more for the week to keep track.jerome736 wroteI'm interested in whether we count the attempts we've made on SSC so far. We have the WWS to tell us who was there and for how long. Would that apply as well?