Here we go again?

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 4th, 2008, 3:08 pm

starsaver wrote for the most part i'm good to raid everyday out of an 8 day week. i love it and i'm all for progression. One thing i would like to say as far as gear, is that i think we need to look at who would benefit more from certain drops, not saying like main tanks and heals but more so the dpsers and other healers that are "consistant" about coming to raids and functions. Such as replacing a blue with a purple as opposed to a purple for another purple. that'll help make sure everyone is geared somewhat equally and hopefully ensure that people who just joined the guild don't get some 25 man loot then gquit and go to main event or some other trash guild the day after getting something that should have went else where... THAT IS ALL

Yes, apparently when we did Gruul this week there were a couple complaints/hurt feelings due to ppl winning loots. IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH A LOOT PLEASE CONTACT THE RAID LEADER. I know that I wait a good 10-15 seconds after someone wins before I give the loot to anybody. If someone is replacing a kara purple with another purple, and you rolled to replace your blue then YOU NEED TO SPEAK UP. ***So a few months ago we had an "argument" about roll by class vs. DKP goin in the forums. I was a main opponent of DKP. I had reseached it, and had talked to a lot of friends who had used it before, and decided that since they had bad run ins with it that I wouldn't want it. Now, they have all progressed farther than us, and are using DKP because its the only fair way to work loots. I think another thing that made us not want to do DKP in the past was how to deal with a pug... I think we are beyond that now. What do you think? With everyone pretty much geared alike are we going to have more problems in the future with rolls? The gruul stuff doesnt really bother me because it is not that much of an upgrade over the Kara stuff, but the SSC stuff will be. How do all the regulars feel about being out rolled by the person that only comes once or twice a month and is wearing crafted "comparable to tier 5 shoulders"? BTW, it would only be DKP for 25 mans.

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 4th, 2008, 3:23 pm

Oh, someone in game just mentioned the "loot council" method again with the council deciding who gets the upgrade. Loot council would be "elected" class leader of each class. Potential raiders wanting the loot would whisper a designated council memeber and it would then be decided. Only problem is that this could reward the dude that only comes once a month and is wearing blues again, but then again that can be taken into consideration by the council and actually promote attendence. Just another thought.

Fargol · Post by **Fargol** » January 4th, 2008, 3:24 pm

Idea 1:

What about a hybrid roll/loot council system where everyone who wants a particular piece of loot, instead of rolling, links their current equipped item.

Then somehow a decision is made about who can roll, and high roll wins.

Idea 2:

Same as above, everyone links current gear, but then makes a individual choice whether or not to roll, based on what everyone else's gear looks like, after all current gear is linked.
Raid leader would say something like "link gear to be upgraded to [ITEM]" and then "now roll for [ITEM]" after giving enough time for everyone to react.
People with obviously superior gear may have their roll thrown out if enough other people voice opinions in the contrary.

This is still very similar to what we're currently doing, (i.e. when a few people roll, but then a winner passes loot because they realise it's a better upgrade for someone else) but just more straightforward

This still doesn't prevent loot'n'run -- but the only way I really see to do anything about that is to create some sort of barrier to new people, so only those who have proven themselves can get loot - but last I checked we didn't want to do anything like that, to encourage fairness and prevent people from feeling like second class citizens even though they may have helped down the boss just as much as the next guy.

kurumi · Post by **kurumi** » January 4th, 2008, 3:30 pm

I like the loot review idea better then DKP. Sometimes it is hard to get into a regularly scheduled event becuase of available slots.. that would make it hard to earn the points.

weedeater · Post by **weedeater** » January 4th, 2008, 4:23 pm

i really like the sounds of those idiea's. the one where we put ur item in chat and then see who has worst is good, but agian some people only run it ever could of weeks, so that wouldn't work out so well, and DKP im sorry i was ina guild where they had that and even tho i had the most dps the other healers got it because they were more under geared so i dont want that too happen. if there was only a easy way for everyone to get better gear and it be fair too everyone.

drp · Post by **drp** » January 4th, 2008, 4:26 pm

I have no problem giving loot to a new memeber, and am normaly one of the first to pass loot to some one I think can use it more, I would like to see us focus a little more on who its the biggest upgrade for a little but at the same time I would hate to see people missing out on loot they have been waiting to get for weeks because we got some one in that week who is under geared

draven · Post by **draven** » January 4th, 2008, 4:43 pm

greetings. i would really like to avoid a dkp system. i think arguing about loot is one of the most detrimental parts of the game (outside of the stoopid people in the trade channel), and personally i really don't care too much about it. it is a rare case when i would not pass on something that would help someone else more.that said, i like the second idea that fargol put forth. i think seeing what sort of an upgrade something would be for others would be helpful, and if there are still issues after a roll you guys all know the game well enough to make a fair determination. concentrating on loot too much is not productive, as there is always something better to get.

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 4th, 2008, 5:02 pm

weedeater wrotei really like the sounds of those idiea's. the one where we put ur item in chat and then see who has worst is good, but agian some people only run it ever could of weeks, so that wouldn't work out so well, and DKP im sorry i was ina guild where they had that and even tho i had the most dps the other healers got it because they were more under geared so i dont want that too happen. if there was only a easy way for everyone to get better gear and it be fair too everyone.

After many readings and deciphering, this is what I get from that... Weed likes the loot council idea, but doesn't like the DKP idea because he was in a guild where he rocked dps and didn't get anything because other people had worse gear than he did and needed it more (to hopefully gear everyone and help the raid as a whole in the long run)... DKP isn't based off dps/healing... it is based off of attendence and downing bosses. You get x amount of points for showing up on time, x amount for downing boss 1, x amount for downing boss 2, and maybe x amount of points for staying the whole raid. Dps has nothing to do with it. You could be the most geared dude out there, and decide to blow your points on something stupid, and that would be ok because they are your points. Loot council could also take into consideration peoples attendence when they distribute loots, so that would help with the people only showing up once a month and expecting loot?

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 4th, 2008, 7:07 pm

So after thinking about this for awhile I have decided that it should not be that big of a deal. I would however like to try Fargol's idea of posting in raid what you are upgrading so that it can be discussed and whatnot. Also, if you have a problem with a loot or something PLEASE LET THE RAID LEADER AND/OR ASSISTANTS KNOW! If you fail to voice your opinion about something then not getting something that you deserve is your fault lol.

Benvolo · Post by **Benvolo** » January 4th, 2008, 7:33 pm

Just a few thoughts...I do not think we should use DKP, and the reasons have already been voiced by other members, and I agree with them. I am more in favor of a "loot council" type approach, possibly in conjunction with the posting your current gear and having others decide if you should roll. Here is why. For those that want the short version, just skip to the bottom of the post...From my experience handing out the loots in Kara for a while, the way people decide if it is an upgrade for them or not can be totally backasswords. Example "well this new loot is a higher item value than my current gear, so I am going to roll" - wrong on so many levels. Item level really should not be the deciding factor in figuring out which loot is better for you. It really surprises me to find out people don't really know what stats are the the most important for their class/spec/role in the raid. Also when it comes to moderate sidegrades, I've noticed people have a really hard time figuring out which is better. Example: some folks do not know how to weight item values againsts others, based on their class mechanics. ie +dam vs +crit when hit capped. I don't expect everyone to theorycraft as much as me, or care about theorycrafting at all actually, but when it comes down to gearing your toon to the best it can be, I think people need to listen to the suggestions of others when weighting stats.As far as attendance and loot, this is always a touchy area. In Kara its not that big a deal. We clear it every week, and many only need a couple items from there now, if any at all. So when a newer person comes in, or a sub for that matter, I am fine with giving them 3 or 4 pieces that they need, even though they may only come once a month. This is where trust plays a factor though. I will use Kurumi as an example here. He only gets to run with grp 2 maybe every 3 weeks or so. He is always very eager to come, if even for some trash boss at the start of the raid. I know Kurumi is not going to pack up and leave when he gets some loot out of the place, so I am more than willing to give him all the loot he wants when he rolls. The same could not be said for [random new person] that just shows up for the first time. If you think that I am going to give you a wep off of Prince on your first few times here, when others have been showing up for months and working for that, you are sadly mistaken.So once again, Benvolo's wall of text crits for over 9000.So to sum it up, I think we should have class leaders, and a loot council (ish) type roll system. Esp when people bring alts to raids, based on need, and may not know the class as throughly as their main; it would be nice to have someone from that class to help decide what is the better item and whatnot.Andy

starsaver · Post by **starsaver** » January 4th, 2008, 7:39 pm

Yea i'm also for the linking what you got suggestion. Also class leaders need to be decided and implimented which should take some of the stress off the RL. i'm sure getting 6 tells would be alot better than 24. As someone said previous about someone getting the loot because a) what they had was worse and b) they out dps'd or out healed someone with better gear, i think that makes sense. If someone is doing a better job then someone else and they have worse gear then giving them better gear would only make them do even better wouldn't it? It would atleast make those who've become complacent remember that hard work benefits everyone and gets all of us through the tough spots...str8 imho of course. Ps. Mike's an asshat and Scott wear's ladies under things while he plays.

Nagashi · Post by **Nagashi** » January 6th, 2008, 8:53 am

Loot council seems good to me too. However I really feel that those who show up time and again wether on and alt or otherwise, they made the commitment and paid thier dues and should definitely be shown preference, yeah sure some ppl don't have the "time" but also their not gonna be there the next week because they don't have the time so that's a wasted piece of equipment in the long run that could have been put to better us by someone who does show up more frequently.

Baraccus · Post by **Baraccus** » January 6th, 2008, 4:13 pm

I was talking to Mahonri about this, and he asked me to voice my thought here, where it could be typed out all at once and he could focus on the thought

I have been a part of quite a few loot systems, and seem others discussed by others who I trust and respect. Personally I've been a part of a raid-leader decides system, modified zero-sum DKP, and a base /roll system much like FA currently uses. It all boils down to what you want the system to accomplish. If you are looking for a completely fair system, then DKP is the only way to go. A system can only be fair if its impartial, and a loot council can never be subjective (humanly).I have heard it said that a loot council system can work, but I've never actually seen it work well. The people I know who have experienced it regret having the system, and most of them have since changed to DKP. Inevitably (in the cases I've seen) it causes issues of accused favoritism, hurt feelings, and headaches for those on the council.As I said before, it all boils down to what you're trying to accomplish with your system. I just can't imagine putting my getting or not getting loot up to the somewhat arbitrary decisions of others who may or may not even understand what my itemization should be.

thandrenn · Post by **thandrenn** » January 18th, 2008, 7:50 pm

I'm agreeing with Baraccus on this. DKP may not be perfect, but it seems the most fair way to go.

Benvolo · Post by **Benvolo** » January 19th, 2008, 12:07 am

So, I am going to retract my previous post about not going DKP. I have thought about it a lot, talked to some people, and done some research. I think it is really the only truely fair loot system. It rewards those who have done the work by coming to raids, and have been there when we have not done so good. That said... Not for Kara, and maybe not even for Gruul's. But for SSC and up, yes. Some of the loots in there are some of, if not, the best items in the game for some classes. (sea-bi*** robes... you know what im talkin bout) So, I really think we should all seriously look at DKP. We can either start it soon, or wait for some big drama over gear, and then switch later... after people get upset/leave/hold grudges.

Kaittlynn · Post by **Kaittlynn** » January 19th, 2008, 3:38 am

I too am now all about DKP. I have not always been a fan of the idea, but if we are going to give loot to those that have attended the most (vs people just coming to the raid for the first time) then we are kind of doing this anyways, however without having a DKP system set up, doing it is just kind of favoring and biasing individuals. Also, I don't know that I agree with Class Leaders--I don't fully understand this situation, but it is hard to stay unbiased in this aspect as well. DKP sounds like the way to go. So Here We Go Again? Yeah, but really this time we need to do something rather tahn talk back and forth and then just ignore it.

Drumble · Post by **Drumble** » January 19th, 2008, 5:53 am

I'm in agreement -- 25 people is a lot of people to take into consideration when you're playing our normal "roll and be fair about it" technique.

mahonri · Post by **mahonri** » January 19th, 2008, 7:09 pm

Absolutly - I am not sure what type of DKP system we would want to use, anyone have any ideas or found a system they would like to tell us about? I know that Fates Hand uses one that sounds pretty resonable, maybe Baraccus could tells us more about it. I have also heard about systems where loot has specific values (can find preset values online) that you pay, and systems where you bid for the item. I think that I personally would be happier with a set cost with the loot going to the person that has the most points at the time. I think that I would also be a fan of a system that rewards the raiders for being ontime, even if it is just a small small amount of points. Just my thoughts. Anyone else have any ideas? I'll search the net for some links.

Benvolo · Post by **Benvolo** » January 19th, 2008, 10:33 pm

Yeah, I think that using class leaders to distrubute loot is not the best way to go. I used to think otherwise, but we really need an all around fair system for everyone. DKP is that system. I will start looking more in depth at the specific systems, and if Baraccus could chime in on the subject, that would be great.Andy

Deathrow · Post by **Deathrow** » January 19th, 2008, 10:58 pm

The guild i was in called Old Continent in EQ used a system called cliff points.I will find the forumla for you,as i feel it was the fairest of the fair.we also used a loot council composed of officers/leaders and 2 volunteers for the month This system had its drawbacks,but it worked for my guild of 100 people for over 5 years,so its tried and true.It rewards casual players as well as hardcore players and everyone in between. you MUST have a system of merit of some kind,or you will experience alot more anger issues.There is almost no way to distribute loot 100% impartially,but i think this way is fair.If you are interested in finding out more about this let me know.Its best to contact me in game since i spend far to little time here