Forged Alliance

The DKP rules for the joint raids are very similar to the Forged Alliance rules. I did take out a few parts, though, to keep things simple. This post is split into three parts. The general guidelines at the top are the basic rules. The second part is the loot philosophy that outlines the scenarios I'm trying to avoid and the scenarios I'm willing to accept to keep the loot process simple. The third part are technical details about how DKP is calculated.

Section 1 - General Guidelines

1) This does not apply to 10 man raids. Loot systems for those raids are determined by the leaders of those raids.
2) Bind on equip items that are not wanted during the raid will be /roll among the two guild representatives for their guild bank.
3) Disenchanted items will be split between the two guild banks (/roll between two guild representatives for odd number).
4) Orbs, patterns, and other high value materials will be split between the two guild banks (/roll between two guild representatives for first drop; alternate subsequent drops).
5) The system used for distributing loot is zero sum DKP. The goal of this system is to distribute loot in a manner that encourages consistent raid participation and progress. There are no perfect DKP systems; each has its strengths and weaknesses.
6) The DKP earned for a boss kill is the total sum of item DKP divided by 25. See the third section for corner case details.
7) Zero is average. Raiders that have acquired a lot of loot will be negative; those who have raided for a while and not received anything will be positive. New raiders will start at zero -- a new raider can gear up on the first night.
8) There will be a single pool of DKP per player; DKP is shared among a person's main character and all alternate characters.
9) If more than one person desires the item for a main character raid spec, the person with the highest DKP has first rights to the item. If they pass, the person with the second highest DKP is next, and so forth. Items awarded in this manner cost full item DKP value as stated in item 11 below.
10) If an item is not needed for a main character raiding spec, it will be opened to alt/off spec bids. Interested people will whisper a single bid to the loot master; highest bid wins the item. In the event of a tie, the tying bidders will /roll for the item. The minimum bid for an alt/off spec item is 3 DKP and this bid can be made even if you have less than 3 DKP -- we do not want to disenchant gear that people can put to use, so bid that 3 DKP.
11) The DKP value of items is taken from the list below. See the third section for details on how item values are calculated.

11a) Standard iLvl 245 item = 25 DKP
11b) Standard iLvl 245 weapon = 28 DKP
11c) Tier 9 (iLvl 245) token/item = 30 DKP
11d) Premium iLvl 245 item/weapon = 35 DKP
11e) All 'Ulduar level' (iLvl 226-239) = 13 DKP

12) PvP items are random /roll among interested raid members. They are independent of the DKP system.
13) All vanity items (e.g., a mount) that have no PvE value are /roll among interested raid members.

-HP

Section 3 - Technical Details

* Reserved *

-HP

If you compare the joint loot rules to the standard FA loot rules, a lot of stuff has been taken out with respect to loot priority. This was done to keep the rules simple. Below are some potential loot scenarios that may arise and the thoughts behind how they will be handled.

Section 2 - Loot Scenarios

14) People declaring more than one main spec (or more than one main character). I'm willing to accept this scenario for two reasons. One, since the DKP pool is shared between all characters, if someone pays the full 25 DKP price for a lot of items, they will be negative very quickly and we won't have to worry about them taking subsequent loot for a while. Two, if someone spreads their gear thin by not focusing on a single spec or character, their raid performance may suffer. If it does, then their invite priority will go down. Remember, it is most effective to use the full DKP price for a single spec/character so that you can improve your performance and increase your invite priority. To gear out your off spec/alt, you're probably better off waiting for everyone to pass and then bid the minimum 3 DKP (or slightly more if you want to be sure) to collect off spec gear.

15) People declaring no spec or main. This scenario will not be tolerated. If someone mysteriously becomes fully geared through 3 DKP minimum bid off spec gear, we will adjust the DKP database to change the price to full 25 DKP. Example: I'm a holy paladin, but declare that my main spec is tanking. Since just about no one will take spellpower plate, I pick all of them up for 3 DKP. I don't ever tank for the raid, but am always healing. This method of gaming the system will not be tolerated.

16) People hoarding DKP. The only real drawback to people hoarding DKP is if they are passing up meaningful gear upgrades. I'm willing to accept this scenario because if someone gimps their own gear by not upgrading it when it makes sense, their raid performance will suffer and their invite priority will go down. There are a few more variants on the DKP hoarding.

16a) A person hoards a bunch of DKP. On a given night, that person is asked to bring an alt. A best in slot item drops and the person purchases it for their alt. I'm willing to accept this scenario for three reasons. One, zero sum DKP is more or less round robin loot distribution. If a person comes week after week to help with full clears and doesn't need anything, the drawback of having them take an item down the road is probably worth it since multiple successful runs is better than none at all. Two, if a person is fully geared out, they may decide it is no longer worth it to keep bringing their main character to the raid. With shared DKP, we give such a person the option to bring an alt (provided the alt is geared enough to be useful -- greens won't cut it) and switch back to their main if the raid is struggling. It's better to keep a geared person motivated to keep coming and lose some loot than to not field a raid and get no loot. Three, I suspect that there will be a main spec hoarding DKP anyway so the opportunity won't arise.

16b) A person hoards a bunch of DKP. On a given night, that person purchases an item for full 25 DKP. They then secretly trade this item to someone else in the raid. To be honest, this is going to be very hard to police. We'll play it by ear, but if it causes weird raid drama, corrective action will be taken at that time and may include suspension from raid invites.

16c) Similar to 16b, if someone purchases items for minimum 3 DKP and secretly trades them to other players, the receiving player will have their DKP adjusted to charge the full 25 DKP (see item 15). Furthermore, if it causes weird raid drama, corrective action will be taken and may include suspension from raid invites.

17) Tanking/healing gear may get spread thinner than normal. I'm willing to accept this scenario for three reasons. One, ToC10 along with the conquest/triumph badge gear is more than adequate for gearing up people outside of ToC25. There are only five bosses in ToC25 -- it's not like Ulduar where you have to gear up tanks/healers on the early bosses to have a shot at doing the later bosses. Two, if someone wants to burn full 25 DKP to invoke priority over a tank who happens to have less DKP, they'll just go negative faster (see item 14). Third, it is in the interest of a raid to have a broader base of tanks and healers. ToC25 requires 3 tanks and 5-7 healers, not counting backups. Three ToC10 groups require 6 tanks and 6-9 healers, not counting backups -- getting more people geared to fill more roles will let us have more viable options instead of calling raids because two people can't make it on a given night.

-HP

Ok heres some of my 2cents worth. I really think it was a great idea to do this, since it was getting close for more than a few to pass on raiding with the roll system.

That being said, i want to say that if you violate rule 15 i think you should be bitchslapped, and if you violate rule 16 at all you should be banned. period

I also have issues with paying DKP for VoA 25 man tier loots, since i can get them on my own in pugs and its stupidly easy to get a succesful 25 man pug. Raiding bosses that are easily doable in a pug is a bad idea, and will lead to problems.

I think alot of good work has been done, but we still have a ways to go.

Yeah, I've been told Benediction has the same sentiments about VoA25. From everyone's experience, have the PUG25s that attempted Koralon been widely successful or widely fail? One of the motivations for moving to a DKP systems is to encourage consistent participation under the premise that a consistent group will consistently (aww, 3 times!) clear content. If Koralon 25 is trivial, we'll take it off the DKP and leave everyone to their own devices to get a group together with PUGs and whatnot.

Regarding rule 16, I don't want to be policing people's armory. If people want to hoard DKP for that one trinket or that one weapon, bear in mind that someone with better gear and doesn't need anything in ToC25 is probably doing the same and is being constantly invited because they are a superior player; you may have to settle for the 3rd or 4th drop of that item.

I do expect people that are hoarding DKP,
1) Master their class and the boss mechanics so that minor differences in gear don't matter. If you need gear upgrades just to be on par, don't hoard DKP -- take the upgrades (and strive to figure out your class).
2) Responsibly gear up in ToC10, Uld25, and triumph badges so that their gear is up to snuff and can afford to pass over minor upgrades.

-HP

Most groups are succesful, and what i should clarify is that i would be highly annoyed by 16b and 16c and expect those people to be gremoved.

I however will show up because thats what i always do, and i will do that for as long as i am able.

How would you even know? Seems weird that the perpetrator or the receiver would brag about it. Maybe the receiver if they were a huuuuuge douche.